1. What is your definition of a film noir and what film do you consider the prototype--the one that best exemplifies the genre?
Stanwyck and MacMurray in Double Indemnity. |
I know it’s not the most daring of choices, but to me the picture that best captures these elements is director Billy Wilder’s 1944 thriller Double Indemnity, starring Fred MacMurray, Barbara Stanwyck, and Edward G. Robinson. A seemingly smart guy in over his head, a seductive and amoral temptress, and a “fool-proof” murder plot that’s not as simple as it appears...all with whip-smart dialogue from Wilder and co-scripter Raymond Chandler, of Philip Marlowe fame.
Dorian: I’d define a film noir as a story in which the bleakest aspects of humanity keep trying to get the upper hand, and the protagonist(s) keep trying to thwart those aspects against all odds. Those “bleakest aspects” can range from one character’s problem to an overall tough situation affecting many characters.
Peter Lorre in Stranger on the Third Floor. |
2. If you had to single out one director that influenced film noir than any other, who would it be?
Gary: Austrian-born Fritz Lang, who presaged the noir style with such films as M and the Dr. Mabuse movies in Europe before fleeing to America when Hitler came to power. His first Hollywood project, the 1936 lynch mob drama Fury with Spencer Tracy, contained a number of noir sensibilities, as did his 1941 “let’s kill Hitler” thriller Man Hunt. Within the noir demimonde itself, Lang’s resume includes The Woman in the Window, Scarlet Street, The Big Heat, and a picture that’s my answer to question #3.
MacMurray and Robinson in Wilder's classic film noir. |
Sheri: So many fine noir directors. Tough choice. . . .While Fritz Lang is very important, as is Robert Siodmak, one of the most influential noir auteurs was émigré writer-director Billy Wilder (Double Indemnity, Sunset Boulevard, Lost Weekend, Ace in the Hole).
3. What is your favorite underrated film noir, the one film that doesn't get the attention it should?
Gary: While the City Sleeps, a later (1956) genre entry that’s part “psycho killer” suspenser and part hard-boiled newspaper drama. A serial murderer dubbed “The Lipstick Killer” is preying on women in New York City, and Vincent Price, the ne’er-do-well son of a deceased media mogul, offers a promotion to whoever among his top newsmen can break the story and bring the maniac to justice. The suspense comes not so much from trying to guess the murderer’s identity (we see him “in action” before the opening credits), but from watching how far reporter Dana Andrews, photo editor James Craig, city editor Thomas Mitchell, and wire service head George Sanders will go—from office politicking and backstabbing to using their wives/girlfriends (Rhonda Fleming and Ida Lupino, among others) as “bait”—to win Price’s contest. Oh, and Lang clearly shows that one of the things driving the “mama’s boy” madman into his flights of homicidal rage is EC horror comics.
Dorian: I’ve always felt that Henry Hathaway’s The Dark Corner (1946) was an underrated noir. It covers so many classic tropes that it’s almost like “Film Noir’s Greatest Hits,” in a good way! One of the things I like most about it was Lucille Ball’s character Kathleen. She’s warm, loving, and practical, yet also strong and able to think on her feet and help save the day when hero Mark Stevens is up against it.
Elisha Cook, Jr. in Phantom Lady. |
Rick, you did a great job as moderator of this "3 On 3" film noir panel discussion, and I'm happy and proud to be in the company of such savvy noir experts as Sheri and Gary! I was also delighted to see that all of us on the panel love and respect DOUBLE INDEMNITY as much as I do. I was also pleased to see such favorites of mine as DEAD RECKONING and PHANTOM LADY getting kudos, too. And thanks to my fellow panelists, I'll keep an eye out for WHILE THE CITY SLEEPS and revisit STRANGER ON THE THIRD FLOOR, which I saw and liked a few years back. Thanks again for including me in this terrific "3 On 3"!
ReplyDeleteGreat film noir discussion. I learned a lot! If you ever need anything for the panel, I am available. That is such a great idea, and again I learn so much!
ReplyDeleteGreat choices on directors and films, so many of both among my favorites.The roots of noir are definitely in German Expressionism as Sherri discusses and the dark years of World War 2.Thanks to all three contributors for their thoughts and to Rick for the idea.
ReplyDeleteWhat a great panel on a great topic! I second Sherri Biesen: Phantom Lady REQUIRES a DVD release; so, incidentally, does MINISTRY OF FEAR. I would add to the underrated/under-the-radar film noir list the 1946 Monogram production of DECOY, starring the fabulous Jean Gillie as one of the most cold-blooded femme fatales ever (and it's on DVD!).
ReplyDeleteRick, a great second installment. This is a genre I think all classic film lovers have a weak spot for. You certainly assembled an interesting panel for this subject, and they all gave thoughtful and thought-provoking answers. To me the most difficult question was #1, and I'm most impressed with the succinct and focused answers of your panel. This is a question whole books have been written on! And I'm pleased to find that I'm in the mainstream in considering "Double Indemnity," my own favorite film noir, the quintessential example of the genre.
ReplyDeleteAnother excellent topic for 3 on 3, Rick! The definitions of film noir were especially thought-provoking and very well done. The choice of "Double Indemnity" as its prototype is indeed a propos. I especially like Fred MacMurray's Walter who is suckered into Phyllis's machinations. Our thought of MacMurray is often as the father of "My Three Sons" or "The Absent-Minded Professor" so this contrast is phenomenal. One of my favorite choices for underrated film noirs would have to be Val Lewton's "The Seventh Victim." It tends to fly under the radar despite boasting performances by noir stars Tom Conway and Jean Brooks, a great directing first by Mark Robson and music by the multi-talented Roy Webb. I have only seen "The Dark Corner" and "Phantom Lady" once and did like both of them. I would like to see "While the City Sleeps," because I am quite fond of the underrated Vincent Price. Gary, Dorian, and Sherri, you all did an awesome job on this blog!
ReplyDeleteThank you for a thoroughly entertaining and enlightening discussion. Next to watching a dandy bit of "noir", nothing is more pleasurable then hearing from people who know what they are talking about.
ReplyDeleteMy number one movie rule: All film noir are crime drama, but not all crime drama are film noir.
My top three:
The Big Combo (1955)
Road House (1948)
The Blue Dahlia (1946)
Super discussion on my favorIte film genre. I really liked the definitions of "film noir", especially the one proferred by Gary. It's one of the most concise definitions I've read. Glad to see "Ministry of Fear" get some long overdue recognition.
ReplyDeleteWonderful discussion! It's always fascinating to see both differences and similarites, especially considering that the 3 authors never talk before the article isposted.
ReplyDeleteTo highlight what I felt was the best of the three: I liked Dorian's description of film noir best -- "the bleakest aspects of humanity keep trying to get the upper hand, and the protagonist(s) keep trying to thwart those aspects against all odds." For best director, I liked Gary's choice and reasoning: "Austrian-born Fritz Lang, who presaged the noir style with such films as M and the Dr. Mabuse movies in Europe before fleeing to America when Hitler came to power." And for description of best underrate movie, Sheri hit it for me -- "Lang's Ministry of Fear is underrated with beautiful noir style shot during wartime blackouts just before Siodmak filmed Phantom Lady and Wilder shot Double Indemnity. Dead Reckoning, Out of the Past, Act of Violence and Tension are also great."
Very good discussion!
I've received so much great feedback on the "3 on 3 panels" that I plan to host a new one monthly as a regular feature at the Cafe. The secret to their success is, obviously, getting the right people to answer the questions. This week's three film noir authorities are just that--as evidenced by the depth and scope of their responses. My favorite part of this "discussion" is the definitions of film noir. I think some critics jam films inappropriately into the noir genre, but the movies described here align nicely with the definitions provided. Like another commenter, I love Gary's concise description of film noir as "the accidental love child of German silent expressionist cinema and Warner Bros.’ 1930s crime dramas, raised in an atmosphere of World War II heroism and Cold War paranoia." Sheri mentioned my favorite film noir (OUT OF THE PAST) and a little-seen favorite (TENSION, starring the versatile Richard Basehart). I agree with Dorian that Wilder was probably the most influential noir director, but I am also fond of Lang and Anthony Mann, who dipped into the genre with RAW DEAL. My favorite underrated noir is probably an unconventional choice: GUN CRAZY (aka DEADLY IS THE FEMALE). Visually, it's not very noirish, but the characters are undoubtedly driven by fate. If Bart's infatuation with guns doesn't doom him from the start, then his fate is certainly sealed when he meets the sharp-shooting, scarily ambitious Annie Laurie Starr. A cloud of dark doom hovers over this couple for the bulk of the film--with the ending never in doubt. That is, in part, what noir is about for me.
ReplyDeleteRick, I'm really looking forward to you making the "3 On 3" panels a regular feature here at the Classic Film and TV Cafe; it'll be fun to see other genres getting the "3 On 3" treatment! Thanks, too, to Becky, John, Caftan Woman, and everyone who's been joining this conversation; I enjoyed hearing what everyone had to say!
ReplyDeleteI loved this very entertaining discussion, on one my favorite film genres. A couple of things that stand out for me in film Noirs, is how they used lighting to create long shadows for the perfect atmosphere.
ReplyDeleteAlso, most of the time, it was a story about just ordinary people who get caught up in the dark side of life.. And.. please don't forget all those great, femme fatales like, Gene Tierney.